In this exclusive interview with Evadne Macedo, author of The 29th Day, Kristen den Hartog shares her thoughts on writing. Kristen den Hartog has written three novels (Water Wings, The Perpetual Ending and Origin of Haloes), and a non-fiction book (The Occupied Garden (with Tracy Kasaboski).

Kristen den Hartog on Writing:

1. At the February 20, 2010 Humber Writers’ Circle, you spoke about your older sister as an inspiration for your own writing. Are there any experiences that you can look back on as being defining moments in your career as a writer of fiction? At what point, did you seriously think of yourself as being a “writer” and did this require some sort of outside validation?

I’m not sure there were defining moments, but many subtler moments that over time made me think of myself as a writer. Since it was something I was compelled to do from a very young age (copying my sister’s stories but putting a new, more dramatic spin on them), I probably romanticized the idea of it as I grew older. When I set about crafting stories in a serious way, I quickly came to understand that being a writer (or more correctly, writing) would take work and tremendous discipline. I remember being drawn towards shows in which writers were interviewed about their process, or to articles about the writing life, and at the same time feeling a sort of dread about gathering that type of information. As if a truth would be revealed to me that I couldn’t actually do it. So in that sense I think I required self-validation even more than outside validation, at least at first. But seeing my name in print in my early stories in literary magazines certainly pulled  me forward. The discipline was slower to come, but when I started writing full time, I began to treat it more pragmatically. I don’t wait for bursts of inspiration and gaze out the window for long periods of time the way I used to. Writing is my job, so I sit at my desk at the beginning of each day and take myself through it. It’s more about writing than being a writer.When my first novel Water Wings came out, there was a nice moment. I was working at a flower shop then (a job I’d done in various places for many years), and a copy of the book was couriered to me by my editor as soon as it was ready. I was in the middle of stripping roses when the envelope arrived, and I pulled the book out and stood looking at it in the workroom, and there was this weird feeling of my two worlds having collided in a very lovely way. My work in flower shops was something I did for a long time so that I could write at night, and though I never intended this to happen, it really did end up influencing me, in that the natural world, plants, flowers etc. have a real presence in all of my work.

2. The Calgary Herald described your “probing, idiosyncratic intelligence and emotional generosity.” What I like is how you establish your characters through “showing” rather than “telling”. For example, in Water Wings, the following paragraph demonstrates the depth of a character’s superficiality without any sort of narrative commentary: “… Darlene looks lovely, always lovely. Only at her elbows is there any sign of aging. There the skin puckers and folds like too-big sleeves. Darlene is herself aware of it. ‘If I had to live life over again,’ she once admitted, ‘I’d bend my arms less often. That’s what does it. Too much bending stretches the skin.’ She straightened Hannah’s arms then. That whole visit she tapped on Hannah’s elbows whenever she saw them bent. She pinched the skin, which pulled out easily, and showed Hannah. ‘See?’ she said. ‘It’s happening already.’”

I enjoyed Darlene as a character, and the challenge of trying to convey her ugliness through her beauty. I wanted her to seem somewhat vulnerable too – so she isn’t cruel, in my opinion, just incapable of certain levels of emotion. And her selfishness really impacts the family dynamic, and opens the story up to ideas about action and consequence. Showing and not telling is one of those great old rules, but I’m not really thinking about it or any other rule while I’m writing. In fact, sometimes breaking those rules allows for more interesting things to happen. I equate that with my floral work too – the double berry rule. I stumbled into flower design, so I didn’t know that you were only supposed to use one type of berry at a time in a flower arrangement, but it can actually look quite stunning if you use only berries – all kinds of them – at once! I try to give myself that kind of freedom in writing as well, without going overboard. The novel I’m working on now uses perspective in a very odd way, and in the beginning I kept stopping myself and saying, But how can she see this, how is this possible, and so on. But then I’d just push myself to try it anyway and see where it led. I really like those kinds of challenges when they feel integral to the story.

3. I had started my fiction writing with the goal of a novel in mind. Having attended numerous writing workshops in the past year, I realize this is somewhat unusual — most of the writers I have met start with short stories and then try to transition to writing novels. In your case, prior to publishing your first novel, Water Wings, you had published short stories in literary magazines and short-story anthologies (such as The Journey Prize Anthology and The Turn of the Story: Canadian Short Fiction on the Eve of the Millennium). At the February 20, 2010 Humber Writers’ Circle, you said that Water Wings had evolved from some short stories you were working on at a writers’ retreat. Please describe your approach to turning short stories or small pieces of writing into a novel and any tips you may have for people aiming to write a novel after having written short stories. Would you say that your current process has been refined over time from less successful methods, or is this how you have always written?

I had actually never intended to write novels. I love short stories, and for many years that’s all I wrote. But in the mid-90s I attended a writers’ retreat in Saskatchewan, and worked with a group of fiction writers there under Bonnie Burnard. I brought a collection of stories with me, and was surprised when Bonnie and the others agreed that the stories “felt” like a novel. They were each about different characters in different settings (at least I thought they were), but there was a consensus that something was building in the manuscript, and the characters were inhabiting one particular world together. I remember Bonnie saying, I think you’re working on a novel here. And I said, But I don’t know how to write a novel. Where do I begin? And she shrugged and said, just start thinking of it that way. Start calling it that. It will come. And of course it did. That was Water Wings. Since then, I’ve written two more novels, and a fourth is underway. I still love short stories and occasionally write them, but quite often they end up being folded into something else I’m working on. Though I’m sure I’ll return to that form one day.

I can’t say I would have any tips for how to make the shift from short story to novel, or the other way – only that I myself like to be open to possibilities and have come to learn to trust my instincts on where a story needs to go. For me, the process of each book has been quite different, and I can only guess that that will continue to be my way. Water Wings involved a lot of untangling and re-sorting because it began as stories, whereas The Perpetual Ending was written in a much more linear, almost dreamlike way, incorporating odd little stories written by the narrator as a way of unlocking her past. And then Origin of Haloes involved a bit of research since it unfolded in Olympic-year intervals, and there was a weaving of fiction and non-fiction since people like Pierre Trudeau and various athletes appeared in the backdrop. And The Occupied Garden, my first non-fiction book, was written with a solid outline, since it was telling a true-to-life story and was shaped by historical events.

4. When you set out to write a novel, what are your goals in terms of plot, character development or the craft of writing itself? Are there any non-fiction guides or great works of literature that you have found helpful in improving your writing?

Really my only goal is to make work I can feel good about; stories I feel a need to tell. I don’t read fiction guides, and try to write in a way that feels natural to me. I do of course pay close attention to the fiction I read (and actually to all kinds of writing), and often find much to admire. When I find things that bother me about someone’s writing, I pay attention to that too, and try to figure out just what it is and what I would do differently. But mostly my approach is very plain – what feels right for me. When I step away from that it strikes me as dishonest. Which is not to say that I don’t like to challenge myself, but not for the sake of being challenged. I’m also pretty good at accepting criticism. I like to hear what’s not working when someone reads an early draft, and to puzzle through why it isn’t and what I can do to shift it.

5. Back in December, I interviewed Gina Buonaguro and Janice Kirk on their collaborative approach to writing fiction. Both you and your sister, Tracy Kasaboski started off writing fiction and recently collaborated on a non-fiction book tracing your family history. Why did you decide not to write this story as a novel? What was your approach to collaboration? Did you gain any new skills from this project? Do you think you will stick to fiction from now on?

There are endless ideas for fiction out there, and this could easily be one of them, but what was compelling about the project was more than the story itself – it was the act of piecing the real story together based on the fragments. It was an amazing process, and one that resonated so well for strangers too. I think people could really relate to this idea of family history disappearing – trying to save what you can of it before memories vanish all together. It was also the perfect project for collaboration, given that so much research was necessary, and that both of us, as descendants of the characters, were equally emotionally invested. I wouldn’t want to collaborate on a novel – which isn’t a judgment at all, just a personal decision. But for me this partnership was totally different. The story was there; we just had to find our way through it. We shared the project each step of the way, passing the story back and forth to make the writing as seamless as possible. I would love to do it again one day, if the right project comes along. I’m very enthusiastic about exploring other forms of writing – memoir, children’s stories, short fiction and so on. Perhaps even other types of non-fiction.

6. All writers are influenced by the work of other authors. My personal influences include Margaret Atwood, John Irving and Terry Fallis. Who has influenced your writing the most, and in what ways? Have you tried to distinguish your writing from these authors in any way?

I don’t think there’s any one person who has influenced me “the most.” It depends what I’m working on, where I am in my life. I love Alice Munro’s work, certainly. I was also taken with Gabriel Garcia Marquez and his magical approach to storytelling. Perhaps I’m not the best judge, but I don’t really think I sound all that much like someone else, and haven’t felt the need to try to distinguish myself. I can also be inspired by biographies or movies or still photographs. Or by people – Agnes Varda, Vincent van Gogh, Charles Darwin. Right now I’m reading a book about Vincent van Gogh, and finding the excerpts of his letters and the ideas in them really wonderful.

7. Do you see any similarities between Water Wings, The Perpetual Ending and Origin of Haloes? Are you continuing with these themes in your fourth novel, or can we anticipate a new direction in your writing?

I think there’s a common thread in all my work, though the stories themselves are quite different. I’m drawn to exploring the various ways that families break down, or manage to stay together. Sometimes they break down even while staying together, at least superficially, and that interests me too. Water Wings is really an exploration of how divorce effects children; in The Perpetual Ending there are marital troubles too, and a girl’s twin sister dies in a car accident; in Origin of Haloes, a father disappears and another stays but is emotionally abusive; the consequences of a lie multiply. Even The Occupied Garden, our non-fiction book, is about family interactions at its core. And my new novel continues along this theme – a story about a girl who grows into a giant, and the effects this strange affliction has on her parents’ relationship and her own ability to navigate her way through family life and the larger world beyond. So as to your question about  a new direction, to me it feels as though there are endless directions one can take when writing about family and the various places within it.

8. In completing my first novel, The 29th Day, I have relied heavily on comments from early readers. Some authors rely on friends, peers or trusted advisors to review and provide feedback on early drafts whereas others write in seclusion and pass it only on to agents and editors once it is complete. Where do you fit on this spectrum and why?

I do have trusted people I show things to, and it depends on the book as to who those people will be. Never too many people, though, and never at too early a stage. I need to feel my own way through first, but then when things feel fairly solid, I like to hear what’s not working. I actually really enjoy the revision stage. It’s much less intimidating than the blank page/screen.

9. Could you please comment on the practicalities behind your writing? For example, do you keep notes in a notebook? If so, at what point to you transfer them to a computer? Do you write on a laptop or a desktop? Do you hide yourself away in a quiet room or write at cafés? And the biggest question of all: Do you use a Mac or a PC?

A PC! But first I usually begin in a notebook. I still like to write by hand, especially early in the process before anything has really taken shape. I jot down ideas or phrases that come to mind, not knowing where they will lead, and sometimes I doodle or stick in newspaper clippings or photographs that seem somehow related to the idea that is evolving. And then when I have something that hangs together, I sit at the computer and transcribe what I’ve got so far, and continue from there. Occasionally throughout the process I will take up the pen again, because it’s nice to get away from the computer and shifts my perspective. There’s something very special for me about writing by hand. As though the idea is going directly from my brain, through my body and onto the page with no middle man. I even like the look of the handwritten words.

10. When you spoke at the Humber Writers’ Circle on February 20, 2010, you showed us gorgeous little handmade books that included themes, illustrations, poems or photos connecting to your novels. You also had one that you had created after writing The Occupied Garden — you mentioned that you needed to do this in order to let go of the story. I was quite intrigued by this and think it would be of interest to my blog readers. Please describe these booklets, your reasons for making them and how they help you with your writing.

The books are kind of tied to what I said above, about handwriting, and my need to have a more direct way of expressing what’s going through my mind while I’m writing something. They really began during The Perpetual Ending, my second novel. The story itself was pretty bleak in the early drafts, and also felt flat on the page, so I took a break from it and began making these little books as presents for my niece and nephew – fantastical stories illustrated with collage etc. and bits of newspaper. But as often happens when I’m working on a novel, the novel’s story began to worm its way into these books, and eventually the little books seemed irrevocably connected to the novel. So I got the idea of incorporating them as stories that the narrator had written. And then of course I was over my hump, and really invigorated by the change. I can’t imagine the novel without them now.

The book you refer to above was interesting too. The Occupied Garden took years to come together because of all the research, and I had a deep emotional attachment to the story because it was about my father and my grandparents, and so it took me a long time to really let go of it and begin something new. So I set about making a scrapbook of sorts, and pasting in photographs and bits of letters and diaries and lists of questions we had asked when the project began. What I love about it is that it has all these secret pockets. You lift up a photo and there’s another one beneath it, or you open a letter and there’s a document inside. This to me encapsulates our fascinating research process – all the discoveries along the way, things about the family that we didn’t know and would never have known had we not taken on this project. I did the scrapbook very quickly and simply, using pencil for all the bits of writing because the grey look of it fit with the idea of family memories fading over time.

11. At the Humber Writers’ Circle, you also spoke about how you balance the challenge of blogging and writing and how you draw on your own personal interests in exploring children’s literature with your family. What are your reasons for having a blog and what advice would you have for novelists trying to build up an audience for their writing?

I began the blog because writers are so often advised to have one, but I was uncomfortable with it from the beginning. After a couple of months I realized I was writing more and more often about reading with my 6-year-old daughter, and I got the idea of changing the blog to be a kind of reading diary of the books we shared. This has worked well, because I love thinking about what makes great stories, and of course they’re stories I’m reading with her anyway, so much of the “work” is already done. Typically I try to find out a bit about the authors of the books we read, and this is something I’ve really enjoyed from a writer’s perspective as well as a mother’s. I guess I would advise writers/bloggers to come up with something good to blog about! Otherwise it can feel like a very ineffective use of your time. It’s nice to have that presence on the internet, and happily lots of people find me through the blog, but it’s important to feel you’re offering something worthwhile to others and that you yourself are getting something out of it too. So this was a nice mix of all of that for me, and if I don’t blog as often as I should, it’s because I’m writing – which in the end is really what I should be doing. Again, discipline is so important. So much of writing is just about sitting down and doing the work, and there can be so many distractions that we use as convenient excuses, especially if, like blogging, they are writing-related.

12. Do you have any final words of advice or encouragement for aspiring writers?

One of the great things about being a writer is that just living your life and looking around you (really observing) is part of your job. The other part – the hardest – is finding the dedication, and perhaps even the confidence, to sit down and actually do the work.

For more information about Kristen den Hartog, please visit http://kristendenhartog.wordpress.com/ or http://www.theoccupiedgarden.com/

This interview was originally posted on March 31, 2010 at http://books.macedo.ca

When you visit http://books.macedo.ca, see also Evadne Macedo’s previous interviews and profiles:

• Priscila Uppal: To Whom it May Concern, The Divine Economy of Salvation, Traumatology, Successful Tragedies and many, many other published works (March 17, 2010).
• John Bemrose: The Last Woman, Island Walkers, Imaginary Horses, Going Under (March 3, 2010)
• Pasha Malla: The Withdrawal Method (The 2009 Trillium Award; The Danuta Gleed Literary Award) (February 17, 2010)
• Kim Moritsugu: The Restoration of Emily; The Glenwood Treasure; Old Flames and Looks Perfect (February 3, 2010)
• Terry Fallis: The Best Laid Plans and The High Road (coming in September 2010) (January 20, 2010)
• June Hutton: Underground (January 6, 2010)
• Thomas Trofimuk: The 52nd Poem, Doubting Yourself to the BoneandWaiting for Columbus (December 16, 2009)
• Gina Buonaguro & Janice Kirk: Ciao Bella and The Sidewalk Artist(December 9, 2009),
• Don LePan: Animals (December 2, 2009)
• Ray Robertson: David (November 25, 2009)
• Deborah Willis: Vanishing and Other Stories (GG Finalist) (November 19, 2009)
• Joy Fielding: Still Life & many other novels (November 14, 2009)

After Evadne Macedo’s interview with Kristen den Hartog, please visit http://books.macedo.ca for upcoming interviews:

• Sarah Sheard (Almost Japanese, The Swing Era: a Novel, The Hypnotist: a Novel)
• Anar Ali (Baby Khaki’s Wings)
• Emily Schultz (Novels: Joyland, Heaven is Small; and Poems: Songs for the Dancing Chicken)